speaker-0 (00:00.408)
Hello there, I'm going to invite my co-hosts on in a second to this first session of Menopause Meltdowns and Magic with our guest, Lisa Cordoff. So I'll just get Tanya and then our new...

speaker-0 (00:21.6)
meltdowns and magic.

speaker-1 (00:25.23)
you

speaker-0 (00:26.36)
Let me just invite Tanya. good. Goodbye.

speaker-0 (00:39.054)
That's great. I've got, hello everybody. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We've got the, our lovely new Instagram page, menopause, meltdowns and magic on, and I'll be inviting Tanya and our first guest, Lisa Cordoff on it. Hi, hi Tanya. Hello. How are you? Good, How are you darling?

I'm good. just had a crazy little run around going to pick my kids up from school all of a sudden. Isn't it just part of life, right? Exactly. Exactly. And then I lost my phone. So that was also fun.

speaker-0 (01:27.269)
So Tanya, do you want to just start? I'll just get Lisa on. And if you want to just start and introduce what we're doing here and why we're live, that'd be awesome. Great. Well, welcome everybody to Metapause, Meltdowns and Magic, our new podcast, which is going to air every Wednesday. And yeah, this is our very first episode.

And we're live. So if you have any questions for either Lisa or Emma or myself, please pop it in the comments below. We will get to a few of those at the end and I'll hand it over to you Emma to introduce Lisa. Hi, hi Lisa. Hi, both of you. Hello. So glad you're here.

That's lovely. Thank you so much for coming on and being our very first guest. Look, somebody is saying that they love you, which is a very sweet way to start the day, isn't it? Here we go. I just wanted to, before to introduce Lisa and explain kind of one of the reasons that I was very keen to have Lisa as our first very guest on our new podcast. I was reflecting on it today. That's OK. I was reflecting on it today.

speaker-1 (02:32.886)
too.

speaker-0 (02:53.326)
And I was thinking when I joined Lisa's program Ready for Change back in 2019, I was in a very, bad place and I was feeling so embarrassed and so kind of ashamed of myself because I lost my job and I was feeling all sort of like, you know, I didn't really know what my identity was or where I wanted to go next. And I joined Lisa's program Ready for Change. I'd never joined an internet program before and it completely changed my life.

not only did it allow me to dream about another future that was different to the one I was living, but it also helped me question some of the things that I believed about myself and I believed to be true about the world. And one of those things was around, and it's very much part of the work I do now, but was around that sort of busyness and trying to control and having everything looking perfect.

you know, having this kind of idea of really trying to be what I hadn't, I felt I wasn't when I was a child, which for me was kind of, I was pretty disorganized and I felt kind of chaotic and I was always late for things. And so I really prided myself as an adult on being the opposite of that. And then when I did Lisa's program, there was this little message that

I really embodied, which was everything gets done in perfect time. And it really changed so much for me because I had been operating on this idea that unless I appeared to be perfect, coping, acceptable to the world, that people would not like me. I would be judged. I would be found to be faulty. And to a certain extent,

I was judged when I let go of some of the things that I've been holding so tightly. And I had someone say something to my husband. He was like, oh, you know, I find the state of your house quite confronting. And I think one of the big things in life for me has been in this journey, my ODHD discovery journey, as well as my alcohol free journey has been beginning to be OK with other people's disapproval of me or what I do, which is very hard for us.

speaker-0 (05:19.318)
And so that particular saying that Lisa taught me in that programme, which was everything gets done in perfect time, has been such an invitation for me to get really present and to be in the moment and know that it's OK. And that's one of the things for me is like being right here right now. When I'm right here right now, everything's OK and I've got it. I've got it covered. And so Lisa's been talking a lot in socials.

about momentum and how do you get momentum and honor yourself as an audio HD person or as anybody really honoring that kind of different stage of life that happens in midlife. And so that's why I thought it would be such a wonderful thing to bring Lisa on to talk about how she copes with doing things without getting into that productivity kind of.

frenetic controlling energy and how that works for her and her family as a late diagnosed or DHT person. So I hope that wasn't too long an introduction, but thank you.

speaker-1 (06:31.47)
Well, I mean, thanks for having me. And I saw your live the other day and I didn't realise you'd done Keeping Video Real, Tanya. So amazing. We really have been around for quite a while, haven't we? And, you know, just on the back of what you shared there to Emma, the all-in-perfect timing is a truth. And also after, like,

going through deep grief, I really got angry at a lot of those sayings. I really got angry at a lot of the stuff that made it seem like everything should be okay when everything really wasn't. It really flipped a lot of stuff on its head, especially from that personal development, spiritual world that I'd kind of been a part of. I think also learning about different brains, it really stopped me teaching.

for a while because I felt like I didn't get it anymore. I felt like I didn't get myself. And when we don't, I just didn't have a grasp on things. And so I just pulled back for a few years, really. I shut down everything. And it's funny about what still holds. Now that I've kind of, feeling this, I'm feeling good vibes. And it has taken me a while to get here. And I saw something the other day,

on a widow's page, a woman that I follow online. And she said, you know, if someone had told me it was going to take five to seven years. And I was like, what? Like, it's six and a bit years since Nick died. And I'm like, I'm right in that space where it doesn't, it's not, I'm not like in it anymore. And

I'm finding a new, the kids and I have found a new normal. This feels like my normal life, but it has taken me a long time to get here. And so now I'm, and I've done all this, like sort of, psychologist calls it me building back my inner scaffolding. And it's felt like just, like, I can't get grunt behind anything. I want stuff and I'm just like, and she's like, no, Lisa, you've just been.

speaker-1 (08:54.904)
back up. And so I hit this summer and I had this moment while I was away with the kids that I just knew I was just in a new spot. And then of course, because I know I've taught and I understand so much about behavior change. And then I also now understand my brain, my particular brain better. And I think it's really funny, you know, all the people who seem to have done my programs over the years.

literally a neurodivergent woman creating for other neurodivergent women. So I've gone back to some principles, I've gone back to some ideas. I'm like, okay, when we're in this zone and this is how we get things done and blah, and you just automatically go back to productivity and optimizing. And because that's how we were raised, that's the society that we live in. And I'm like, hang on a minute, this doesn't work for us.

Like this is going to be a quick path to burnout and me losing my shit at home. And really a lot of the reason why I've just kept things so just on the down low is because and you know, we understand this, like when I'm into something, I'm really in, like I am like, don't anyone talk to me? What do you mean I have to make dinner when I just want to be over here creating?

talking to other women, doing my interesting work in the world. don't want to, this other stuff is boring and then it just won't get done. And then there'll be nothing for school lunches. So yeah, I've, I, there's a few different things from those years that I'm using again. And then there's some things that I'm using now that I would never have sort of gone to without the understanding that I have of my, of myself. like,

speaker-0 (10:42.2)
See?

speaker-1 (10:50.092)
Like novelty, like fun, like my life needs to feel fun in order for me to be moving ahead with things. It's like the strategy I never knew I needed. Even although I've always kind of moved in that direction, I've always sought out good times. Like I've got so many programs about good vibes or raising, you know, like reignite, like all this stuff has been like, like how do I...

get myself like feeling excited about things because when I am anything's possible and I have just not felt excited.

I'm like literally building fun in as a strategy for success.

speaker-0 (11:35.18)
love that. How do you know what fun is though? That's I think what...

speaker-1 (11:37.9)
Okay, and so this is why we need help. This is why we need community and conversations. This is why we need other people's ideas because I mean, I've, you know, I've coached thousands of women over the years. Very few would be able to be like, you know what I do? You know how I dial up the fun in my life? Because we're so disconnected from it. Our life becomes

speaker-0 (11:40.408)
This is...

speaker-1 (12:04.65)
everything that needs to be done for other people. And as a sole parent, I get it. And I refuse, I just refuse to accept that my life is only to be lived for other people and that I don't get to have a fucking good time. Are we allowed to swear on this? don't know. But like, Nick dying at 40, I'm like, we don't have forever team. What are we doing?

burning ourselves out and just like martyring ourselves for unrealistic standards, for houses and stuff like that. No, no, I just won't. And so I it's been really interesting to come back into the world of I want stuff. I want to go for it again and see what's actually going to work for me this time to do it in a sustained way for, you know,

my brain, my family. And you know, like I rest a lot. I have talked about rest for years and years and years. think becoming a sole parent just made it very obvious to me that if I go down the whole ship sinks and the only way I can't is by taking care of myself. It's like there is no fallback position. There's no one to say, let me get the kids to school today. There's no one to say you need a weekend. I don't get it.

And so I have built, you know, rest and fun into my life, like kind of out of necessity. And now I just look around and I'm like, I think things aren't working for you because you're really, really tired. You know?

speaker-0 (13:51.308)
Yeah, totally. And I totally hear you on this completely. It's a, I really want to do this work with you because for me, I still struggle, even though all the work I've done, I still really struggle with getting out of that productivity force culture, you know, that kind of like force push, you know, that kind of culture, it's kind of so embedded in all of us, I think. And so a route out of it, I think, is extremely helpful.

speaker-1 (14:19.512)
Well, yeah, I mean, I'm going to be chatting tonight about that. Like I sort of drilled down on that. There's five things that I didn't throw out. There's things that are really helping me right now. And yeah, I just thought I might as well share them because I started talking about, you know, coming into this second wind and then how to kind of capture that feeling and write it and not...

not just like have it burn out because I feel like I've felt this before but it wasn't I wasn't able to sustain it and yeah so I think there's there's a whole whole heap of stuff that I'm I'm doing for myself but I also just I'm also like well if we have a crack then it doesn't work out and everything falls apart at home we've had a crack and we pivot I don't know I'm just not attached

to anything looking any particular way anymore. It's like the whole thing, this whole life is a big experiment. Like, would none of us really know what we're doing?

speaker-0 (15:29.806)
That's exactly right. I always love, and I think you lead by example in this way, you when you come on to, and I've done so many of your programmes, but you come on and it's like, there's nothing that fancy about how it's done. It's just like, come on, put your hand up, say if you're interested and we'll do it. If not, don't worry about it. like, I like that.

speaker-1 (15:50.346)
I I'm sharing this stuff tonight and I've been talking about this and all these messages and all these DMs and I'm like, OK, well, let's just have a month together then. I'm like, OK, let's do it. So I'm opening up a WhatsApp group and I'm sharing these five things and like, let's just let's just hang out together. I'm literally on this path for myself. There's big projects that I want to see happen finally.

There's all sorts of things. I'm trying to keep my vibe up and of course, body doubling. It's better for me when other people are around. I like being watched and observed and all of that sort of thing. it's like, how simple can we make it for as many women as possible to kind of have a crack? Like if you're feeling it, I don't know, do you want to just hang out for a month together and we'll get it done? Just as an experiment. and because I guess I can, have

amazing community of women and I can offer them things and if it takes off it takes off and if it doesn't still be a good time for me.

speaker-0 (16:52.366)
That's it. That's it. Tonya, do you have anything that you'd like to say? I just wanted to say another one of your programs that I did was a story once. And the thing I loved about just like the thing you did, the webinar you did before the program was you're like, I'm literally standing here with all these things written out on a piece of butcher's paper. And

and just sort of talking to that. And so I have always really loved just the easy, you know, relaxed way that you do things. But I also just wanted to, you know, it's so interesting when we understand ourselves a little bit better and we understand our brains and how what motivates us. just makes life just feel a little bit so much easier.

I know that so many women that I speak to feel like they have to do life a certain way and I think it's really freeing to get to this place where you understand yourself a little bit better and you can go, well you know what, I'm going to do it my way, the way that works for me.

speaker-1 (18:05.466)
Yeah. And I just love that we're all talking about this more, especially in like the entrepreneurial community and people who have platforms. I remember being at a mastermind event and I think it was in San Diego. And I literally had up, I was doing my hot seat and I was trying to figure out

which path to go down. always had this like, I love helping business women. I just, find us stimulating and interesting and I've deep dived on how to do this. have that journalism background. So I just like to see people win. And if there's something that I can share, I'll share it. But then I also have this community of women who bought my food programs or decluttering.

things, you know, we were simplifying life. We're trying to raise our children. We're trying to, know, Emma, you came in from on the back of Ready for Change. That was me, like in a moment of my life going, hang on, have I just been telling myself a whole lot about myself and what's possible? And hang on, if that's what it, well then what do I need to do? And so I just, I think my autistic brain helps me go, this is the thing and

speaker-0 (19:11.502)
Thank

speaker-1 (19:25.646)
And this is a really simple way to get someone from here to here. Like I don't find it hard. It comes very naturally to me. Anyway, I was in this mastermind in San Diego and I've got these two things. like, and the business elements of both of them were dialled in. There was a constant flow of people. There was structured programs and memberships. We were earning like over a million dollars a year in a very small business doing really what I felt was really

good work. And I said to them, just, I feel like I just need to make a decision because the whole, the whole sort of narrative was like, choose one thing, just all roads lead to, you know, just choose one thing, which is like torture. Like in some ways it's the absolute answer to everything in terms of how I now build out my life. I quiet the noise by just choosing one thing. Like, in fact, that's one of the things that's really helping me now.

But not one thing for long, like not one thing for the next five years of my life. Holy shit. What are you actually talking about? And I remember just saying, I'm finding this really hard. And the guy who was leading that mastermind just rolled his eyes. And I felt so pathetic for being someone who was trying new things all the time and couldn't stick to to this, you know, just one holy grail of something that you just had to

pin everything on it. was so such a boring idea to me. And I felt so shamed in that moment. I left the mastermind. And that's how it that's how it happens. It's like these little micro you're doing it wrong. This is not the way you build a business. And I'm like, but I mean, I've been doing it quite well. Sure. It's a bit chaotic, but it's also fucking working. And as long as like it used to be this thing where

Mel, who is my business manager, she'd be like, Lisa, can you just go off and just do something fun? Like, just go off and have a good time. Because when you do, you come back and everything's awesome. You it's like it's flowy. But, you know, we get caught up in our own stuff and that there might be a right or wrong way to do this. And for people like us, it just it just feels limiting. Well, for me, it did. It just felt like. How can I commit to this? mean, I did a

speaker-1 (21:53.3)
I got a scholarship to do my PhD at uni, which, you know, on the topic of humanitarian intervention, so why you would go into a country for humanitarian reasons, which fascinated me. I'd done an honours thesis about it. I could see exactly where the theories just weren't even talking to each other. We couldn't have a good conversation as an international community about this. I mean, I was 23.

And I don't know what I thought I knew about the world, but anyway, they gave me a scholarship and I just, couldn't do it. I couldn't get moving. was a three year deadline. And I just, it was just, now I look back, I needed, I loved semesters. Semesters were like these, you know, short periods of time where you had a lot to learn and that was so stimulating. And then you had to put something together and then you got a mark and you got an exam and

three years for a PhD. And so it's the same for my business. Like why would have I expected myself to be able to go, yep, it's this and it's this for life. It doesn't work for me.

speaker-0 (22:59.808)
totally. It's so funny, I reflect back on when I went back and did my counseling degree and had no idea that I was neurodivergent at the time and I joined all these little groups of body doubling kind of work. So I'd like log on to this thing, somebody from another part of the world would be there and I'd be working on my essays for uni and now I'm like, it makes so much sense and that was the only way I managed to

speaker-1 (23:26.634)
In this new, this month together, we're having get shit done sessions where it's literally just like half an hour. Let's just sit here. I'm going to, you know, organise the school holidays because I always leave that to the last minute. You do whatever you need to do. Let's just actually get some stuff done. It's easier for me. And I know that certain types of people are attracted to my programs. But that's the cool thing also about understanding this stuff is like when we're teaching or creating experiences like this,

trying to cater for different neuro types. There'll be people who'll be like, why do you need, I don't need to jump on zoom with you. Yeah. To make this happen. And others will be like, thank God.

speaker-0 (24:09.666)
Yeah. Yeah. I can so relate to what you said, you know, when, when I was a teacher and I would work, like I would find these jobs that had like so many, like so much challenge and I had to go in and fix something. then once it was fixed, I was like, okay, now I need to go find a new job. And so my, my CV looked like,

18 months here, six months there, one year there. And it was something I really shamed myself about because I thought I just don't have staying power, right? I can't stick at a job. And then once I found out about my ADHD brain, I was like, okay, there's the thing, right? But I don't think we, you know, obviously didn't have the understanding then, but I also wanted to just say,

about like your mastermind, you know, story that you shared, we don't teach women how to trust themselves and their own intuition, right?

speaker-1 (25:20.331)
No. Because-

speaker-0 (25:22.112)
If somebody had said, well, you know, hey, Lisa, from a professional point of view, you're obviously doing a really good thing here. Why don't you just trust your intuition or what you're doing? might have made such a difference.

speaker-1 (25:36.844)
Yeah, it really would have. And yes, we don't do that. And it's amazing to parent with all these lessons too. know, like just even listening to you and job hopping. watch two of my kids in particular change hobbies all the time. And it's like, it's fine to do that.

You can just go explore, just go do what feels good. There's nothing like having to stay in something, become the best. Like that works for some people and some people, you know, absolutely. But if it's gone, don't keep forcing yourself. what? And yeah, who made it work? I don't know. I, yeah, I think that, um,

someone told me recently that I was just sharing something about my kids and they were like, God, your instincts are just bang on. Like I've never met someone who has really good, like, how do you come up with this stuff? And I'm like, do I? Because most of the time I'm just questioning myself as a parent who doesn't have that other parent kind of bounce off anymore. am I?

doing this right? Are you seeing this? Hang on, I missed that completely. and teenagers and so much change and and in fact, if I if I am kind to myself, I'm like, you've you've done a good job. Like, we're here and everything's okay. And it's not perfect. And you're not a perfect mom and they're not perfect kids. But we're getting through. And and maybe you are. Maybe that is something about

you. Maybe that is that you're you have good instincts, you're paying attention and and you get your kids. Like why would I find that like almost like vomit in my mouth to say out loud? Because we don't celebrate ourselves in any way.

speaker-0 (27:50.734)
We're kind of conditioned not to, right? It's like our conditioning is like, don't put your head above the precipice, you know.

speaker-1 (27:54.804)
No one likes a show.

speaker-1 (28:00.398)
You can always do better. That's what my dad was just always. You can, you can do better. like, it's an A plus. Um, can always do better. Stay humble.

speaker-1 (28:16.504)
But also like, I'm sorry, I'm all about midlife women these days. Like there is no one that I know who hasn't come through something pretty big at this stage and has had to really like work on themselves like and had had a trajectory just completely sort of switch. We're we're amazing. What would the world be like? I just yeah.

I think we don't understand our own amazingness and sit in that. I do think, you know, for me getting, you know, I don't even really like to call it a diagnosis. I call it a realization. It did rattle me for a bit, I think, for sure. It rattled me in terms of...

I it just made me go, not everyone is like this. what have I, what have you been doing, Lisa? Because I do have this ability to, well, I mean, I think in stories. That's how I think. So that's what comes out of my mouth and it's what I say. I'm a sharer.

speaker-0 (29:12.318)
speaker-0 (29:16.206)
You

speaker-1 (29:37.218)
Like I'm probably would be on the verge, even in this podcast, probably slightly obvious, like hyperverbal. Like there's a lot of things that have to come out of my mouth. I remember Nick, when we moved to Sydney and I was working from home. So I was contracting back to the production company that I was working for in Melbourne. He would go off to work every day at Qantas and I'd just like wait for him to come home. And I can remember saying to him, it doesn't actually matter if you talk.

or not. There's just words that have to come out of my mouth. Like, I don't even know what had happened that day that was particularly interesting, but I just have things to say. the, the, DHT stuff stopped me for a while because I felt embarrassed. I felt like maybe you've been embarrassing yourself this whole time. Maybe, um,

speaker-0 (30:32.713)
speaker-1 (30:36.43)
And maybe you didn't get it. then it was just this real, just be quiet Lisa. You know, just shh now. Like, bit awkward aren't you? And I really ended up just having to kind of go through that. I think everyone goes through a period of discombobulation as they kind of rethink their whole entire life. And then I'm just like,

I I was made this way to do this. I think like even just you guys and what you shared made me cry on that live because I had made a difference in your life. And I think it's because I have little filter and because I do just do stuff as soon as I think it. And maybe that's not a bad thing. Maybe there's a place for me here. Maybe just sort of get back to stopping overthinking everything and just being in the game again.

speaker-0 (31:35.246)
Yeah, 100%. And I really, love you talking about this because I think there is so much shaming. And I even hear it when my little autistic teen is, you know, on a real hyper-focus about some musical or other and you can see some of the adults like kind of rolling their eyes, you know, because we just don't like people being too excited. know, and it's like, it's true.

speaker-1 (31:56.302)
I like his stick.

speaker-0 (32:01.068)
wonderful that somebody cares and is so excited about something. But again, our society's like, look at that. How, how too much, you how sort of inappropriate. Goodness me, don't they know that we're only supposed to speak for a little bit and then we take turns and we all just talk about the weather for a really long time. It's just, it's so conditioned, right?

speaker-1 (32:25.966)
my gosh, my daughter the other morning, the Today Show was at their school because they were talking about the podcast that their school does. And so she's a school captain. And so all the school captains were sort of behind and they must have said, smile for the cameras. So that whole, the whole thing, these are 11 year old kids.

she wore a smile like the biggest, brightest, most sunshiny smile you've ever seen. The halter. She did not falter. All the other kids ended up just being like, you know, oh, where are we? You know, just like drifting in and out. She is just and I thought, I just love her so much for this right now. Like her earnestness, her like ability to go. That's the instruction. And

speaker-0 (33:21.365)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (33:22.478)
I will do the thing and I will do it to the best of my ability. And it looked different. She looked different. And, I just, I mean, we celebrate difference in this house. my son actually came up to me the other day. He's 15. He's like, mom, think I get it. I think it's actually cool. It's cooler to be kind of different and unique.

instead of just trying to be the same as everybody else. And I was like, mate, that's like the key to life. Okay. Yes. Yes. I'm like, girls, come in and listen to what you're

speaker-0 (34:05.23)
I'm

speaker-1 (34:08.141)
You can say this stuff all the time, but until they're like, my God, she's right. I value the people who are their quirky different selves. So maybe I don't have to follow the crowd. Maybe I get to be that too. And I'm like, this just feels like a win for the team.

speaker-0 (34:28.878)
that's so funny. I live in a home where my daughter, my eldest daughter has had blue hair since she was 16 and she's 23 now. And my youngest is, wears sort of like this very bright clown makeup to school every day. And the first few times I was like.

speaker-1 (34:41.013)
I love it.

speaker-0 (34:56.174)
Are you sure you're not going to get into trouble for it? Because they go in a uniform, right? You sure you're not going to get into trouble for going to school like that? He's like, no, mum, they celebrate differences at the school. And then I thought back to when I was a kid or a teenager and I was obsessed with The Cure, the band. Yeah. And every time I got, I dressed up like Robert Smith with the full makeup and the hair and everything.

And I can just imagine what my parents would have thought because, you know, they were just really conservative. My dad was like a minister and Kier was this person just wearing all this makeup. that person, like who I was as a teenager, I stood up in this moment with my kid and said, actually, I remember when you do stuff like Robert Smith, so he can go to school in clown makeup if he wants to.

speaker-1 (35:52.142)
I it. I think our kids just need validation and to be them free. And I think, you know, parents can just unknowingly sometimes, you know, squash that a little with our own expectations of, you know, and sometimes I'm just like the quieter I am, the better they are. Like, you know, there's still a lot to be done.

But as they become teenagers and are growing into themselves, it's almost like a witnessing of their, of who they are as opposed to anything else.

speaker-0 (36:29.358)
Definitely. And I think what you're talking about there and what we're all talking about is one of the most difficult things for adults. Like most of the adults I work with myself, you know, as I've been along this journey is this, you know, our fear of disapproval, our requirement that it feels so unsafe for us, particularly autistic ADHD people who have spent their lives curating the camouflage so that we can be acceptable.

in this idea of what acceptable humans are. And so the idea of not being normal, the idea of being disapproved of, the idea of being excluded from the group or having someone's eyes roll at you is horrendous. so for me, it's like, my goodness, the fact that our kids are getting this is going to save so much pain down the line, right? I hope.

speaker-1 (37:28.0)
Yeah. I mean, I, I can, one of the reasons why I was so attracted to Nick in the first place, he was my husband was because he was so different to anyone I'd ever met before. You know, he shopped in op shops and he wore little scarves around his neck and hats. And, you know, I just, admire people who can be fully self-expressed and I don't.

Well, I don't know if, well, I definitely didn't grow up feeling that in myself. That is something that I'm exploring as a grown woman. And, and it's interesting. I mean, it's especially interesting, you know, meeting new men and entering new relationships and knowing that also, you know, that whole chameleon aspect of

becoming the people around you. And, you know, I sound like people who I spend a lot of time with. So that's a part, that was like one of the things that got me the little, the little tis tick. And I'm like, I have to choose really carefully who I spend my time with and how to retain a sense of self and autonomy and, you know, my own life. I think like it really suits me. don't think I'll ever cohabit.

with someone again, I love my own space. Oh my God, it's so good. And so to have someone who you just get to have a really good time with and, but yeah, like it's a whole extra interesting thing to explore like with all this new knowledge about myself, who I am and who I get to be in relationship. And what I kind of just thought was,

speaker-0 (38:59.726)
Thank

speaker-1 (39:22.676)
normal, traditional, like this is how you do good relationship, which was just taking on norms that were never meant for me. Like I look at all of that attachment theory stuff, I'm like, you know, is it anxious attachment or is it ADHD? And is it avoidance or is it autism? Like, I just think there's so much more nuance needed in these conversations. Obviously I've deep dived on that, haven't I? Yes.

speaker-0 (39:30.446)
No.

speaker-0 (39:52.846)
How do you, you know, when one of the things that when I figured out about my own neurotype and then I went back and I read some of the things that I'd written without that lens, how has it been for you? You've written so much stuff, right? Are there some clues in there about your neurotype or are there times where you just go

my goodness, I don't even know what I was writing here.

speaker-1 (40:24.526)
No, it's all there. I mean, the first business that I created was called Small Steps Living because I'd entered this world of nutrition and health and I'd started to see people doing things that felt very odd. I kind of I have this ability like to just sort of go a little bit up and see things

at a higher level. was like, what are we actually doing to ourselves? was, was, quit sugar. was paleo. It was this, it was that. And everyone's trying to just be so regimented with food and stick to things. And I'm like, it's literally never going to be me. I can't, you start to tell me what I have to do. I've never been on a diet in my whole life because as soon as I'm told this is the way I'll be like, okay, I'll do it my way. Thank you very much. just, I just rebel against it. And so was like, well, how do I,

do this because I don't want to raise my kids on processed food and all of that sort of stuff. I would like to make some changes. And so because I'd been working in sustainability when I was working for a production company, we're heavily involved with in the sustainability space. was always so fascinating to learn about people and like what actually gets them to make changes. Like you don't go from like a gas guzzling bloody truck to a hybrid.

You know, have to, there's just certain things you might change your fuel, you might do this. And you know, that we never go from zero to hero. It's just, it's just not something that our brains like to do. And so I started to learn more about that. I started to think about myself and just intuitively, I had to give myself freedom and novelty and excitement and small wins in order to be able to make a big lifestyle shift. And I did it.

And it was fun. I was just sharing that like, like we don't have to do this like a hundred percent. It's, I mean, it's all neurodivergent, Lisa, even the fact I started my own business because I'm like, this is awesome. And I did two modules of a business course. And then I was like, I know everything I need to know. Let's get this party started. Started before I was ready.

speaker-1 (42:49.998)
started imperfectly. Imperfect action has been my thing the whole way through because I'm like, if I think too much about it, I just won't get it done. And if it's not happening right now, it's basically not happening. So everything has just the whole way I build my business, everything I've taught in my business was for overwhelmed moms. where sometimes the tiny little things like feeding a family feel really massive. And, you know, even just decluttering and making that simple.

breaking everything down into really small parts. It has, it's through literally everything. I think I am a very obvious case of, and I look around at a lot of the people online. I mean, I had the ADHD diagnosis first. And then when I was having that, the psych goes, have you ever looked at yourself through the lens of autism? And I was like, no.

No, it's just that everyone I've ever loved, some of my children, a lot of my friends are autistic, but not me. And she's like, mm. And I didn't, I didn't want to be someone who came online and said I was ADHD when I might have been autistic as well. I think it does a real disservice to a lot of people because I just, I knew I was, will, I do, I don't know. I guess I had.

that assessment and it was confirmed. And it was only really then that I felt like I could sort of show up and say, this is what I've been assessed as. Because I think that if I look back on the business too, in the way that I structure my content and my courses,

the ease in which I feel like all of the butcher's paper and taking one concept and seeing the different parts and knowing if I can get people to connect with this, then that's more likely. that stuff is, yeah, really interesting to me. But Emma also knows that I see this through a bit of a different lens as well. So I use the words ADHD and autistic, but what I have learnt about

speaker-1 (45:13.646)
is that, you know, I am my right brain is just not as active. It's not as like my left brain is working overtime all the time, which if you've got if you're ADHD or something like that, you are like we're firing and and the right brain is a little bit delayed. So I've had my primitive reflexes. Amy, I was with today, and she said to say hello to you.

I've worked out all of this stuff and I've just started on this path of just improving my brain function. so I reckon that the words that we're using now won't actually be the words that we're using in five years time or 10 years time, because we're going to have so much more information about the specific parts of our brain that are potentially just sort of not firing or, you know, like the...

the energy, literal frequency of a particular part of the brain on the right side is not matching the frequency on the left side. And so it can't talk to each other and do the job properly. Like, I think it's so fascinating to learn about those little things because my version of or DHT totally different to yours. Like, like a completely different experience of life and strengths and skills and blah.

and things that you might find easy and that you're all dialed up in. I'm like struggling. But I, so I love, I just, love learning about this stuff. I use the words, I say that this is what I am. I think people who've been following me for a long time would not be surprised at all, especially about the ADHD-ness of me because I'm creating all the time. I'm producing all the time. I don't stay talking about one thing all the time.

My interests change, my business comes along with it. And I've accepted that that's just, that's how I'm going to play this game. So like jump on board if you see something offered, cause you might never see it again is basically like, I mean, the backlog of my business and the things that I have created is mental.

speaker-0 (47:21.176)
So

speaker-1 (47:28.362)
That was a really long-winded way to answer your question.

speaker-0 (47:31.694)
Sorry. that's okay. That's okay. I enjoyed listening. I was just thinking about, you know, the whole do things before you're ready. And like learning things, you know, a small thing and then jumping straight into business. And I started a cupcake shop by learning how to ice cupcakes from YouTube and then decided that it would be a great idea to open a store and

My poor husband, every time I say, I've been thinking about something or I have an idea, he's like...

speaker-1 (48:09.548)
my God, my I love that though. Do you know what I think about too is I think about how they say, you know, 90 % of small businesses don't last longer than five years. I'm like, it's probably because they're all ADHD just trying new things all the time. Like give us a break. We create and do awesome things and then we get bored and we move on. That's not a failure. It's not a failure. It's exactly the same as relationships. It's like

speaker-0 (48:10.062)
Thank

speaker-1 (48:37.198)
They were good when you were in it and then they don't then they're then they're not existing anymore. You don't have to go back and make it wrong or bad. It's just like no move and change. Like it's OK. It's death for me to feel like I'm trapped in something. And so I don't feel trapped. I feel like I can do whatever I want to do. Make up cakes. Yeah.

speaker-0 (48:45.87)
Thanks for

speaker-0 (49:06.126)
Oh yeah, I mean, I love when I first found out about my ADHD, I saw a, I think it was like a group post or something on one of the groups on Facebook and they were like, we should have a, like a club where people bring all their things that they, they spent all this money on for the hobby. And then all of a sudden the hobby just died and you're just left with all the things that you had to go and buy.

because that was the thing that just lit you up and now longer it no longer does.

speaker-1 (49:41.678)
I have to tell you, my cleaners are just about to walk in. So I'm going to put, if you want to continue the conversation, I'm going to go sit in the car, but I'm going to put myself on mute as I go there. Is that okay? All right.

speaker-0 (49:55.086)
Okay, do it. Okay. It's perfect. I love it. I'm very often in the car in and on coaching calls as well. It's so interesting listening to Lisa talking about that as well with I was thinking about recently because both of my kids have got pots as well and heads and I always find that there's all these like interconnected things to do with

being an autistic ADHD human being or any other kind of neurodivergence. And it was funny, we were sat there with this lovely heart doctor talking about it and he was saying, you I think it's, you know, some of this stuff that's called a specific thing isn't necessarily going to be called that in the future. It's like, there'll be all these like different interwoven kind of areas and it's just fascinating, I think. Yeah. I think, I think this whole area of

like science and discovery is just ever-changing. You know, we only really started understanding about neuroscience like in the 80s compared to like the other parts of medicine and science. And you know, what's happened on social media about neurodivergence, it's just sort of opened up so many people being able to share their experiences or discover themselves and...

And I think it's just something that's continuously shifting and changing. And I think that's really beautiful. Yeah, I agree.

speaker-1 (51:32.27)
I we're just at the tip of the iceberg, really with it. Did you see Sarah Wilson's article in Substance? Yeah, I haven't read it fully yet.

speaker-0 (51:39.074)
That was amazing.

speaker-0 (51:44.108)
I read the top lines and thought, that's interesting.

speaker-1 (51:47.118)
I mean, I think that this I think that that term neuro complexity that appeals to me. Because I do think we don't fully understand. mean, we understand a lot, but really, I think the brain is like one of the most fascinating organs. And yeah, like we're just going to have so much. We've just got so much to learn.

And we should just be open to that as well, like not get too locked in with certain understandings of things, I think.

speaker-0 (52:23.598)
I agree. Tanya and I have been talking about all the outcry around polyvagal and saying that we were going to...

speaker-1 (52:33.966)
Have I lost Emma or she?

speaker-0 (52:36.158)
No, no, think Emma's doing the circle of death. Hi Emma. Hi, sorry. I need to plug myself in.

speaker-1 (52:41.26)
She's back

speaker-0 (52:47.118)
Yeah, it's, it's, is fascinating. And, you know, I think it's, I really love the term neuro complex as well. And I think that, you know, I have, I once interviewed on my, my, my old podcast, a counselor who's also autistic and she does a lot of spotlights on different people from like different people that help.

neurodivergent people in different ways. And she at the bottom of everything she writes has a little disclaimer about, you know, herself and her views. But she also says people like Interview might have a different opinion about this in a few years time. And I just, I really love that because it's just so much grace, right? We're constantly changing and

We're constantly figuring new things out and to be able to give ourselves that space to explore, I think is so important.

speaker-1 (53:54.262)
Yeah, I think so too. but I think I got to the point a little bit where I was like, you don't you don't understand Lisa, you don't know enough. And then I realized and this is something that. Yeah, I know, sort of plagues a lot of a lot of women when they when they want to, you know, help others or all those sorts of things. And then I was just like, does anyone?

Like in this particular space, we're all just let's just all be kind and generous with each other and about what we've learned, about what's helped, about where we're at right now whilst keeping it totally a free flow. This is where we're at right now. This is the level of understanding I have right now. You know, I think for me, I look back, buddy, getting like

You know, you get memories on Facebook and they now have the Instagram stuff as well. So it's basically like I'm just reliving years of my life because I've been posting since 2012 online and I look back and just go, Lisa, what were you doing? What were you saying? You genuinely believe that shit and whoa, you were putting that out into the world.

And, without understanding privilege, without understanding all sorts of different things. And I've had to really work on just going, like forgiving myself and just being like at that time. That was that was helpful, like even ready for change. I could never teach that in the same way. There are things that absolutely aren't stories. A lot of women in there were trying to not be disorganized.

or not be certain things. like, now we get to embrace the aspects of ourselves that we know might be true, but we still get to choose who we are amongst all of it. And that's where the power comes back in. But, you know, brains are complex. And I thought I understood enough. you know, I've had to really reconcile like

speaker-1 (56:11.342)
putting myself out there as someone who could deliver that kind of thing without knowing, you know, like even a 20th of what I know now.

speaker-0 (56:21.08)
Bye.

speaker-0 (56:24.718)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's the same for all of us with, you if you put a course out there, I look back on mine, was talking to the people in the lighthouse, in the alcohol experiment this time, and just being like, okay, so that bit where I tell us to be a bit mean to the part of us that's being a bit of an asshole to ourselves. Okay, just forget that. I've learned new stuff. But it's just like, that's, it's like, you know, we can't put anything out there because it's all going to be old, you know, tomorrow. And otherwise it will just

paralyze us and stop us doing anything right?

speaker-1 (56:57.07)
We're all that and I think that's a thing. If people like us are committed to keep learning and keep open and not get too narrow in our ideas or not, you know, sell silver bullets but just keep it all nuanced and open, then I think that we've come a long way.

speaker-0 (57:18.83)
100%. I totally agree. And I think the biggest teacher for that for me has been my children.

enjoyed this conversation. Yeah, they have, I don't know, they challenged every single thing that I thought I knew about life. And yeah, I think that's pretty cool that they're constantly teaching me new things.

speaker-1 (57:55.746)
How lucky to be others. Yeah.

speaker-0 (57:59.468)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really conscious that we're coming to the end of an hour and I know that Lisa's got a webinar that's happening tonight and I wanted to give you Lisa the opportunity to tell us a little bit about that because I'm sure there'll be people wanting to join that.

speaker-1 (58:20.014)
Well, I mean, I think I explained it a little bit before. It's just really me sharing the things that are helping me at the moment, you know, with everything that I know now, you know, fluctuating capacity, a lot of demands on my time from my family and all of that sort of thing. But also, you know, as someone who

has been in this sort of, I've just sort of kind of kept things going. You know, when you're like, I've just been in that, I've called it maintenance mode, just, I've just kind of locked in and I've been doing that. So now that I'm like, I'm back. I want things again. I would love to be doing more again. It's like, how do I do that? And how do I keep that front and center? Because for me, it's so easy for life to just kind of, you know,

pull me, pull me back in and out of it. So what feels achievable? What's going to help my brain actually take action? mean, we know like habits are like a reflection of our life. Like whatever we're doing all the time is what our life is. So how do I kind of tweak little bits without freaking myself out and and actually like build a life around this kind of new identity of someone who is, you know,

in this second wind. yeah, it's just really the vibe very soon. And as you know, like, it's not bloody rocket science. It's just me saying this is what's helping. And and it's very simple. But I think sometimes like we need reminders. I need reminders that it can have the way to do things and like that that would be helpful for me. so like at the very start of it, I'm like.

just ditch what isn't necessary for you. This is not a formula for success. Fuck that shit. You know, it's just like take what works and try. I don't know. And I think and then, you know, because I just wanted to share that with people because a lot of people have been commenting and saying, you just seem a bit different. Like you seem full of energy again. And I'm like, yeah, I'm vibing.

speaker-1 (01:00:43.318)
And so then I'm like, well, I'll tell you what I'm doing. And then my brain goes, well, maybe they'll want to do it with me. And, know, and then I'm like, well, let's just, I'll just offer a month together and just keep it cheap. Like just make it so that if people want to have a, have a go, they can have a go. I think, you know, it's nice to, work with people on things. I'm not like over here on a pedestal. I'm literally trying to get back into.

Aversion of myself, I actually thought was probably gone. But she's there and I'm like, I really want certain things to happen this year. So how am going to do that for myself? I know it comes down to literally the simple things that I'm doing most days. So and having fun. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing tonight. I'm sharing the five things and just taking walking people through it, saying like, what a difference, like what I've sort of seen change in my life.

And it's been really great as people have registered, they've written back to me and just let me know, you know, we're all actually dealing with a lot of the same things. There's a lot of us going, I just can't like kind of get into gear sometimes. Or this aspect of my life is just draining the fuck out of me. And I can't like it feels so foreign to even think that I could.

get something done. I think because I've spent these years in the wilderness, really, I also am like, if you're there, you're there. You have to force yourself out of it. You can stay. You can stay until you feel ready. I think that's not a conversation that we have very often is sometimes it's absolutely normal to retreat. Like we are seasonal, you know.

beings we're not meant to be on all the time. It was right for me to step back. God, I should have probably done it earlier than I did. I didn't even know I had permission. Yeah. You know, but yeah, I I slid the business into just like, and we'll just, we'll just get by, but we're not building. We're not.

speaker-2 (01:02:59.15)
Stop. Stop, stop, stop.

speaker-1 (01:03:01.858)
get yourself sorted. And then, and so suddenly it just sort of feels like it's time. And I think it's, I think we all as women need to give each other and ourselves permission sometimes to just be in winter, stay under the blanket. Jesus. you know, we are so hard on ourselves sometimes. I definitely was. And nothing is

speaker-0 (01:03:16.93)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (01:03:28.302)
clear in those moments. I was just wanting clarity. I just wanted to know. And of course, I couldn't access it. My life blew up. You know, anyway, so that's happening tonight. The link is in my bio if people see this today. But otherwise, yeah.

speaker-0 (01:03:37.144)
Mm.

speaker-0 (01:03:49.32)
I'll put the link as well in there when we when we load this onto Instagram I'll put the link in there as well because I've got it from the lovely lady in your office as well. I'm really looking forward to that. Yes she is. Really looking forward to that. Tanya did you want to pose we have a lovely little question that we're going to try and bring to all of our guests and ourselves at the end of this podcast. Tanya did you want to ask the question because I think it's a really lovely one.

I just wanted to know if the three of us could just each share something that felt magical for you in the last week.

speaker-1 (01:04:29.55)
Well, my magical moment was probably my mum's birthday on Sunday. I love my mum so much and she does so much for her kids and I hosted her birthday lunch and this was on the back of quite a few big days. I'd gone to Sydney, we'd been at a concert the night before and

I just love nothing more than people sitting around my table, eating food that I've made, you know, with a lot of love and care and just being able to spoil my mum, seeing her surrounded by her grandchildren and her children. I just, I really let that moment land. You know, I have appreciation for those moments and

and the way everyone shows up for her and just how much she feels the love. That was magic to me.

speaker-0 (01:05:40.162)
Beautiful. Beautiful. I can feel myself just being in the moment there with you, the way that you explained it.

speaker-1 (01:05:50.274)
can tell a story, Tanya.

speaker-0 (01:05:52.334)
What was it for you, Ila? I think for me it's been a really crazy few months because I've done two alcohol experiments back to Mac, which has been quite insane. So literally every day coaching. And I think the thing for me is this week has been witnessing people sharing themselves and just feeling so...

overwhelmed and so not in a good way, like overwhelmed with love and for just how freaking amazing women are in midlife and just feeling so much like connection. Really quite a wonderful feeling. So I think that's been my magic this week for sure. Mine's very similar. I've been coaching a group of mums for over a year now, just on a year with

you know, helping your children recover from burnout. And I've just starting to see some of the mums sharing some of the wins and the little shoots of recovery that their children are experiencing. And that's just been my little magic moment this week.

speaker-1 (01:07:08.986)
That's beautiful. Well done you two for doing amazing work in the world.

speaker-0 (01:07:12.902)
And you too as well. Let's give ourselves all a little clap there. Thank you so much. Thanks Lisa.

speaker-1 (01:07:22.998)
pleasure. Thanks for asking me. I was very honoured to be asked. Thank you.

speaker-0 (01:07:27.374)
Thank you so much for coming on. really appreciate you giving up the time because I know what it's like doing a webinar in the evening and you know, it's like, just throw another thing in there.

speaker-1 (01:07:37.358)
Just say yes, just say yes, that's my motto this year. I'm like, yeah, I'll do it.

speaker-0 (01:07:43.598)
All right, my lovely, will you go and have

speaker-0 (01:07:50.67)
Thank so much Tanya as well for our first day together and we'll get this published next week and shared around. So thank you all so much. Have wonderful afternoons. Take care. Bye. Bye bye.